Tech Truth: Agile Evolution & the Future of SW Engineering • Martin Fowler & Kent Beck • GOTO 2025

This conversation was recorded at GOTO Copenhagen 2025. #GOTOcon #GOTOcph
https://gotocph.com

Martin Fowler - Pioneer of Various Topics around Object-Oriented Technology & Agile Methods
Kent Beck - Software Engineer & Creator of Extreme Programming @KentLBeck 

RESOURCES
Martin
https://x.com/martinfowler
https://www.martinfowler.com
https://toot.thoughtworks.com/@mfowler
https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-fowler-com

Kent
https://bsky.app/profile/kentbeck.bsky.social
https://www.kentbeck.com
https://github.com/KentBeck
https://twitter.com/KentBeck
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentbeck
https://tidyfirst.substack.com/about

DESCRIPTION
Martin Fowler and Kent Beck — two of the authors of the Agile Manifesto and perhaps the most influential duo in software engineering history — reunite for an unscripted conversation spanning thirty years of friendship, craft, and the relentless pace of change. They discuss how AI ("the Genie") has become a genuine part of both their workflows: Kent uses it as an endlessly patient tutor for exploration between features, while Martin distinguishes between AI as a tool for talking to computers versus the irreplaceable human skill of talking to the people who need software built. Both are optimistic about the future, though Kent's optimism takes characteristically sharp form: he expects the industry to keep making the same mistakes, which means he'll still be employed teaching the same lessons 20 years from now.

The conversation also revisits the Agile Manifesto at nearly 25 years old, with both reflecting on what Extreme Programming got right — feedback loops, testability, evolutionary design — and what the broader adoption missed or diluted. Martin is candid that progress in software has been slower than he'd like, though he points to a "forest" of practitioners who have genuinely advanced the craft. On the question of a Manifesto reunion, both gently redirect: it belongs to the next generation now. Their closing advice to a junior developer in the audience is perhaps the most memorable exchange in the whole session — use the gaps between features to learn, and never forget that understanding the domain and the people in it is ultimately what separates good programmers from great ones.

TIMECODES
00:00 Intro
00:50 How Martin tamed a room full of egos
07:30 How Kent & Martin actually use AI today
16:20 What Martin & Kent think of SAFe?
22:58 Ethics & education in software engineering
29:15 Thoughtworks Tech Radar
32:36 DORA report
34:57 Do we still need to understand AI code?
44:54 Is the future of software optimistic?
48:05 Should there be a 25th anniversary manifesto?
50:38 Advice for junior developers
53:37 Outro

Read the full abstract here:
https://gotocph.com/2025/sessions/3780

RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Martin Fowler • Refactoring • https://amzn.to/3EVcHXQ
Martin Fowler & Pramod Sadalage • NoSQL Distilled • https://amzn.to/3ChIpu7
Martin Fowler • Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture • https://amzn.to/3lp4sIq
Martin Fowler • Domain-Specific Languages • https://amzn.to/3nzOIFk
Martin Fowler • UML Distilled • https://amzn.to/3kahjyA
Kent Beck • Tidy First? • https://amzn.to/4gscjjK
Kent Beck & Cynthia Andres • Extreme Programming Explained • https://amzn.to/3sBASDG
Kent Beck • Test Driven Development • https://amzn.to/3U4AXLs
Kent Beck, Fowler, John, William, Don & Gamma • Refactoring • https://amzn.to/3SFBYbN
Kent Beck • Implementation Patterns • https://amzn.to/3sBlCGL

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