How to Never F*ck Up a Discovery in High-Ticket Sales ($1M/Month Closer)

We're back with another high-ticket sales call role play. We're gonna jump into an offer that is selling a founder's community. So a high-level community, just like the Unicorn Closer Mastermind. You're gonna see the things that are missing in your sales calls, no matter what you're selling across any different industry, these things are universal. It's about becoming more as a person, learning how to understand human beings, and having a way of selling that is scriptless and therefore authentic. Harry is gonna play the prospect, Bart is going to play the closer here. And so without any further ado, let's dive in to the role play. So Harry, I know you had a great conversation with Ben as well. Therese Tahir, just in your opinion, what's the biggest challenge that you're facing right now as a founder? Yeah, I would say there's a few different challenges. I feel like I'm in an interesting place right now where I've been running my current business for about five years. So a decent amount of time i'm pretty happy with the way it's progressing um generally like i feel like i'm at a point where i have a nice work-life balance i'm pretty happy with my income obviously i always want to scale and i always want to keep developing myself in terms of growing the business there's a few different challenges really i'm going through kind of a rebirth in how i'm marketing myself, if that makes sense. But in terms of what had me interested in what you guys do, I'm really just looking for more inspiration and more people who are founders as well, to be honest. I just don't feel like I've got that many personal connections in my current circle who can relate to kind of the shift I'm going through in my life right now. Yeah, got it. Got it. So just to make sure I'm up to speed, you've been in business for five years. and I mean, it sounds like things are going really well, right? You're happy, you've got a nice work-life balance, the income is good. Obviously, you continue to want to scale and so forth. It sounds like, you know, in terms of the growth for you personally, you mentioned like marketing yourself better. I'd like to touch on that. But you also mentioned just getting more inspiration from like other founders specifically. yeah okay pause if you could go back and do that again Bart is there anything in hindsight that you feel you missed or anything that you feel could have been shifted um in hindsight I would have gone backwards what do you mean by that I recapped it from five years in business on down just in the same way that he went and in hindsight and from our last role play I remember you flipped it, which starting with like the pain or like, okay, so you're feeling like, if it's fair to say you've been lacking inspiration, just in terms of, you know, not being around other like-minded founders, you know, for the most part, you know, you're happy right now, you got a good work-life balance. But if I'm hearing you correctly, Harry, it sounds like what you're looking for is a community of other founders or something like that, just to tie in the first part to say I heard them, but like focus in on the lack of inspiration being like the missing piece. Very good. Guys, did you all catch that? Number one, shifting the direction of what you're putting at the front of the recap. You don't want to focus the front of the recap with awesome, everything's going pretty good for you. This is good. That's good. Oh, by the way, let's just add on the end, the thing that's going bad. Now it's like this add on to the end of the recap you want the recap whether you put it at the front or it's just very heavily laden which means full of the pain you want the recap to feel more painful than positive okay one simple way of doing that is just start with the pain another thing was you diminished the pain and so we're talking about two slightly different things here that they're nuanced one is what where you place the pain versus the business context, five years in business, you know, putting one at the front or one at the back. That's one thing. The other thing is you said a bit more inspiration. You would like a bit more inspiration. Whereas what we want to say is you are lacking in inspiration. We don't want to say you've got it and you want a bit more. We want to say, got it. So as far as in the inspiration department with founders that are like-minded to you, sounds like right now that's lacking for you is that accurate yes i'm saying that you have a gap something's missing not that you'd like a little bit more okay so two slightly different things the other thing i think you missed i could be wrong here you i don't think you focused on personal connections i think you focused on the inspiration but i don't think you mentioned personal connections again he did say those two things okay so three things for the recap placement front and back minimizing versus really bolstering up the fact that he's missing something and then making sure the third thing that you get everything everything that's a pain point okay a little bonus one guys is you know harry's saying all five years in business this that and the other i'm going through a revamp or whatever the word was he used do you do you really need to mention any of that in the recap not necessarily you could just say okay got it you've been in business five years. But as far as the inspiration and the personal connection side of your business network right now, sounds like you're lacking in that right now. Is that accurate? Yes. So it's going to be like 0.1 of a second that I'm mentioning the filler information really just to let him know, I heard you, but the whole recap is focused on why we're on the call. Does that make sense, everyone? Okay. All right. Let's keep going from there, Bart. Yeah. So Harry, it sounds like you know, what's lacking is just inspiration and being around quality. Don't say just, it sounds like what you're lacking is just some inspiration. Do you want to give me 25 grand for some, just a little pinch of inspiration? No, because also what you're doing aside from you actually not truly listening, cause you added that word in there, what you're actually making Harry feel subconsciously. Cause Harry bear in mind knows the ramifications of his lack of inspiration and you're making it seem like there is none. Like, oh, just a bit of a lack of inspiration. What if the fact that Harry is a business owner, is a seasoned business owner, what if the fact that his lack of inspiration and personal connections has cost him $5 million in the last 12 months because the lack of founder inspiration, the lack of personal connections, he's just been coasting. Whereas if he'd have actually had some inspiration, had some connections, he could have done a couple deals. He could have grown one of his businesses. He could have made some new connections and bang, that could have been worth $5 million for him. So to say, oh, just some inspiration, it's actually disrespectful to the prospect. Does that make sense? Yeah. Thank you for that call out. All right. Keep going from there. All right. So Harry, it sounds like you've been lacking inspiration and personal connections with other founders that you feel like are at your level. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, very fair to say. Okay, and you said you've been in business for five years. I mean, I'd be curious, like, when did you start to feel that come up for you? Yeah, so it's probably something I've been opposed. You could do that, but you're going to take the long road to get to where you want to get to. Aside from when did this come up, what's a better place to start? Any idea, Bart? I was wondering that in real time. I mean, just asking what he means by a lack of inspiration. Yes, but there's a better way to phrase that question to get the current situation. How could you phrase that? What exactly has been causing you to feel that you've had a lack of inspiration? Better, I would just simply say, okay, so given that you mentioned you're lacking inspiration you're lacking the personal connections you're really looking for recap what have you got right now in terms of inspiration from people around you at a similar level to you or the personal connections that you're looking for oh right now i don't have any of that what do you mean you don't have any of that well i don't have a single person in my network that's a founder at my level right so i can very quickly dig out the pain by just heading towards the current situation current situation relative to a lack of inspiration and a lack of personal connections on the level that he's looking for so i would just go there it's the most perfect to get this okay keep going from there yeah so harry given your lack of inspiration and just personal connections with other founders at your level what do you got what have you got right now in terms of finding that inspiration yeah so it's a weird one i feel like i have like connections in the space but they're all kind of just people i know through like online communities and spaces in terms of people i physically connect with in person i would say i have one person in my life who actually i'm regularly engaging with and kind of is a founder as well. Okay. And that one person, I guess, why is that one relationship not enough for you? Good, but there's a slight nuance, but you're doing the right thing, Bart, which is trying to understand the situation. He actually gave you more clarity around what he wants and therefore the reciprocal is what he's missing inside of what he said see if you can figure it out he said well what i got hung up on for a second was like he said he's kind of a founder and i wanted to probe in on that as like oh like what does he do but you know maybe he would have told me well he's just like successful but he doesn't have the he can't relate to me as a founder and i think that could have been a good angle, but I didn't really want to take that. I guess you could say like risk of him being like, oh, well, you know, he does this and he does that for me and kind of try to say like, no, this is why this guy is great. And that's why I wanted to ask, well, why is that guy like not cutting it for you? And then maybe he would have told me that, well, he's just not a founder. And like, I can't relate to him on like the real, you know, founder level shit. So faith's on the right track here although this is actually not the one i was referring to but it's a good example and faith put in the chat here so you were attached to the answer which is perfectly meaning let's say you asked him okay you said this guy's kind of a founder i mean doesn't sound like you're that enamored by his relativity to where you're at is that accurate well no he's he's a founder okay cool well if he's a founder and you've got him already as a connection why not just lean more on that connection i can't do that so you would have got to where you wanted anyway you could have just basically unsold why not just lean more on that connection however there was an even more obvious direct route to the next question than the one we just picked up there anyone got it when i say this to you guys hopefully you're all going to be like oh yeah that's so fucking obvious well done harry although you're playing the prospect so maybe that's cheating yeah don't go away so what harry said which was so fucking obvious was well i've got these these other people but they're online but i've only got one person in person so then the obvious question is and it doesn't matter how you question it how you phrase it i would actually just say as a statement we need to ask about the online versus the in-person that's your next obvious piece of data okay so it sounds like harry you're really looking for more in-person connections is that accurate yes why and that's it the like the most obvious thing and harry gave it to you on a silver platter was well i've got a bunch of online connections but no and it's like that's not how we phrase it but it's like why why but no like why not just have online connections It's so relevant to these calls too, because this is always the stuff that comes up. So it's great to get to it this early. So thank you. You're welcome. So go from that part. Ask it however you want. It doesn't matter how you phrase it. It's what you need to focus on that matters in the discovery, not how do you ask it. That shit really is like 1% of your success on a sales call. 99% is you asked about the wrong fucking thing or you asked about something that was not an 80 20 for any of you that know the 80 20 principle it's like yes that thing is fine you can ask about that but we've got 20 to 30 minutes guys like every question has to be from the response of the prospect what's the 80 20 they then respond again what's the 80 20 okay i'll ask about that what's the 80 20 okay i'll ask about that every time they respond you've got to look for like that's the big needle mover in what they say i'm gonna ask about that and go from there and it's like you're taking it from like the big opening question what's the 80 20 in there that's this little bit here then from that you've now got the next large space from their response it's like what's the 80 20 in that and you're and you're literally like a funnel filtering down from a big could be anything to this very minute specific thing at the end of the call which is where all the dots connect got it harry so you're a founder it's been five years that you've been in business but right now you're in blank blank blank situation you specifically need in-person contacts for xyz reason you don't have them and that's costing you abcde and you it like it just becomes this very narrow obvious conclusion to the conversation Does that make sense? Okay. Let's go. All right. Go from there, but love the enthusiasm. Keep it up. Cool, Harry. Well, sounds like you have some connections and relationships, you know, at least online. And you have this one person that's kind of a founder, you said that you have like a physical, you know, in-person connection with. I mean, to me, it sounds like that's more valuable to you would that be accurate to say that in-person connection one addition to the question find how you asked it what do you need to add on to the end of the question just to be very accurate you said sounds like that's more valuable to you what do you need to add on the end right now why why right now why why should i add that on to the end of the question um because we're in this current situation bang and on a sales call we're talking about right now we don't give a fuck about the past or about the press or about the future unless it's relating back to right now the more on a sales call you can keep the entire focus on right now right now right now that's what builds pressure in the prospect okay so sounds like and there's also prospects that because you've been slightly inaccurate and you call them an a type by the way guys although that's a fucking made up thing but anyway because you've been slightly inaccurate and you say sounds like those in-person connections are more valuable to you harry if he wants to would go well not necessarily whereas if you'd have just said sounds like those in-person connections are more valuable to you right now he wouldn't say well not necessarily he would say well yeah right now i've got xyz project and i need in-person people. So just because of your tiny inaccuracy, you're then going to say, oh, my prospect's being difficult. They're not being difficult. They're just checking you that you're not an idiot because they're checking if they want to buy from you as much as you're checking if they should buy. And every time you slip up on little details, they're going to test you more because at the end of the call, they're actually genuinely hoping they can whip out their credit card and give you 20 grand. But they're not going to do it willy nilly. They're going to do it if they feel like everything's been the T's have been crossed and the I's have been dotted. So they're doing that actually for their own saving face. So help them out. Don't drop the ball on anything. Okay. All right. Keep going, Bart. Cool. All right. Let's run it back. Cool. Harry, well, it sounds like you have some online connections with other founders and so forth. And you mentioned, there's one person that's kind of a founder that you have a personal, like physical kind of relationship with. It sounds like that's more important for you right now. Why is that? Good question. I would say, previously, it wasn't, I would say, like, when I first got started in business, I was so focused on just getting off the ground that I didn't really care about having those in-person connections but i think as i've got older and as i've got more experience more more recently i felt like i can't specifically describe it but i just feel like i don't have those people in my life the people i do look at in my life currently i don't quite feel aligned with they're like old friends from home the only people i'd really see in person other than my other found a friend and it's just led me to feeling a little bit almost alienated like I go back and I see my in-person friends but I just don't even feel like I can connect with them anymore so you feel alienated okay was there a certain time in the past like five years that I don't know something's changed or you felt that for the first time that you know made you feel like these in-person more physical relationships were starting to become more important for you? You can do what you're doing later, but before we go all the way back through the last five years, I would want to know more of a recent scenario. And then we could later on go to the turning point moment, which was a year and a half ago or two years ago. But right now we're not at the point where we can start pushing the call forward to a sale which is once we get to the turning point we're still at the point where we need to dig the pain out so question josh i was taking him away from the pain i i felt that too um would you go back to the why not just lean on the that one relationship now question would that just no not now not now i'll tell you what i would do but i don't want to throw you off what i would have done is probably want something that none of you are going to have come up with. And it's just because I'm listening to Harry's words. So Harry said, back when I was more interested in online people and the network I had before, it was because I was getting off the ground. That was his exact wording, off the ground. So how I would have tackled it, I would have gone, so you mentioned before the network you were building, the inspiration, the personal connections was really to get you off the ground. What are you looking for now in terms of the value or the necessity of inspiration and personal connections? Or I'm looking for X, I'm looking for scale, or I'm looking for this, or I'm looking for whatever word he wants to give you. Got it. Now I need to go back to the present because that's a little bit of future pacing, but I'm using it to get the information and bring it back to the present. Let's say he said scale. Okay. So what is going on right now, given the lack of inspiration, given the lack of personal connections regarding you scaling your business oh we haven't we haven't made any extra money for the last two years when you say you haven't made any extra money how much is your business doing right now like last month how much did it do 100 grand and so it was 100 grand two years ago what what do you think you would have scaled it to if you had the inspiration the personal connections oh it could have been 300 grand got it so you've lost 4.8 no 480 thousand dollars in the last two years due to lack of inspiration and personal connection given that you've been willing to lose that money for the last two years is there any recent signature moment that's come up that you've noticed the cost of your lack of inspiration and personal connections that means now is the time for you to take control of this notice how quickly i've gone from what's what does he need why does he need it what's the cost of it what was the turning point into commitment and we're like four fucking questions in 30 seconds because i'm just looking for like the 80 20 so when harry said off the ground the big 80 20 for me was well if the past was off the ground what is going on now like that was a huge missing piece for me so i would have just gone there does that make sense i don't want to throw you off no i mean it made made perfect sense um And I see how, too, that set you up to then do the, okay, turning point moments. And it just made more sense to come in at that standpoint, too, to get a better understanding. But you're moving in a specific order that keeps them where they need to be in the pocket for solving their problem. so always look at what the prospect said and look for the 80 20 which is there's either something that's glaringly obvious because it's um a big data point or listen to this guys there's something glaringly obvious because there's a big missing data point in other words you've got like this landscape and there's either a giant fucking red bouncy ball and you're like well that's probably the 80 20 over there because the rest is just a land of grass and then there's this giant fucking red bull over there or it's this land of grass and there's a giant hole on one side and you're like well why is there a big fucking hole there i better figure out what's in there and so it's either that something the prospect said is like well it's got to be that because that's obvious or you're like there's a huge piece of missing information here i'm gonna have to ask about that because the missing piece is the 80. And what I do know is the 20. Does that make sense? So when Harry said, oh, in the past, I was getting off the ground. I was like, okay, so I know your entire business history from every day from the present backwards, but I have zero idea what's going from the present forwards. In other words, what are you doing now then? So I had to ask that. Does that make sense? So hopefully you're enjoying this training. Now, if you're brand new to the channel, you can skip this. But if you've been watching my videos for weeks or months, you've gotten value, you've implemented, you're making more money because of it, the question I have for you is, what are you doing still sitting on the outside? Are you someone who's going to continue to just watch free content when deep down you know being on the inside, being mentored by me directly, being around other unicorn closers is the thing that would take you to the next level? if you think you're getting value from the free content i'm putting out here on youtube what do you think happens inside the mastermind so if you know you're ready if you're at that point you've seen what you needed to see click the link below this video jump inside i'll see you there now back to the training yeah okay jump back in wherever you want and i'll help you out when you get stuck beautiful yeah i'm gonna take a swing at that um okay harry so it sounds like i mean when you were just getting off the ground, you know, five years ago with the business, the online inspiration and connections was, you know, getting you off the ground, right. And getting the wheels turning. I just, I'm just curious, like why now you're really feeling like it's more important to have those more physical, like in-person connections with, with other founders? Yeah. So I would say it's, it's kind of twofold. One part is me realizing just kind of the current in-person circle I do have isn't really fulfilling me anymore like I'm kind of like I said alienated so I I'm kind of at a place where I just don't even want to associate with those people so there's a little bit of potentially loneliness there in terms of just not having physical connections in my life but on the business side more specifically I'm so I'm a fitness coach I've I'm going through a kind of rebrand, I'm trying to really well, I say I'm trying, I'm in the process of kind of thinking it through. But the content I currently post my current brand image, I've come to realize is out of alignment with how I actually operate. And at the start, like I said, that was all based around getting off the ground, just starting the business, where I am today, I want to take a different angle that's more aligned with how I actually live. And I'm a bit worried about doing that to be honest because I feel like potentially I'm going to lose business potentially I'm going to have to let go of some of my staff and I kind of just realized I don't have anyone I can really speak to who's potentially been through something similar or kind of understands what I'm talking about and yes I can go online and reach out to connections but I feel like I just want to get around more people who can actually kind of I can connect with a bit more intimately and intimately yeah i thought i said that wrong and um really just talk through these things with yeah so just in terms of what you were mentioning like your friends that you do have more you know easy access to and you do have like that physical in-person relationship with you know you mentioned feeling alienated and even lonely i mean obviously that is not due to a lack of like the physical nature of your relationships, but just tell me more about like you, you feeling disconnected from them. Cause you said that where you're wanting to go with the rebrand and just feeling like worried about, you know, doing that successfully, you like to be having, let's just say higher level, you know, conversations or getting connected with other people on that path. What I'm curious to understand is just like with the people that you have in your circle right now, why do you feel lonely given that yeah make sense pause this is very important for all of you to understand is the pain harry's disconnection slash alienation from his old social circle no no so why are we talking about it yeah yeah he seems like he doesn't really care how much it sucks that you're not friends with your old losers and therefore you're lonely i've chosen to be lonely because i don't want to hang around with the losers what we actually need to do is not ask harry's relationship in other words situation pain between himself and his old group we need to ask about the pain with his current self missing the new group yeah does this make sense yeah this is so good another example of understanding what we're listening for to then know what we're talking about same example again guys the questions that you ask really don't matter but asking questions about the right thing is a deep breaker if you go down this road and the conversation doesn't make a 180 degree back into what we should be talking about this would be the moment on a cool review the call's done like you're not going to sell him ever zero percent chance you need to be talking about his pain of the fact that he's lonely because not because he's lost his old friends lonely because he doesn't have the founders who have had a similar experience rebranding their businesses to have conversations with in person what about that is he lonely about does he sit there at home ruminating about should i do this in my rebrand should i do that i'm confused i'm stuck i'm fearful i'm lost we need to talk about that we don't need to try and pretend for him to have a conversation about how sad he feels that his old loser friends don't want to hang out with uh he doesn't want to hang out with them anymore that's not why he's upset yeah yeah can i say something job uh yeah one sec yeah go ahead a random uh example of this guy is just to give you another idea of how you have to talk about the right thing for a lot of guys and for a lot of girls that go through a breakup even though on the surface they tell themselves and they might tell their friends or whatever or the girl or the guy that why they're heartbroken or why they're sad or why they're upset is because they're not with the person anymore the real reason most people are upset when they break up with someone is not because they've left the previous partner, it's because they're afraid of, are they going to meet a better one? In other words, if you, which is why, by the way, most people, when they break up, they have someone else lined up ready to go. So they don't have to do that. So this is a great example using a different industry, a different category of like, if you were speaking to a guy about how sad he feels about his old girlfriend that he's no longer with, you probably won't get much out of that. But if you actually talk to him about how scared he is that he's never going to meet someone as good as her, he's going to be alone, whatever, and not have future girlfriends. That's what you actually need to be talking about. Does this make sense? Using a different example, different analogy. Okay, cool. Yeah. Let's go from there. Oh, sorry, Bart, you had a question. Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, this is so massive for me, these insights, because, like I'm seeing in real time now that there are these pain points that almost cause like a knee jerk response as a closer to Oh, let me dig in here where the beauty of scriptless is, like I'm saying is it's that's not really maybe a pain point, but it's not really where the pain is. And so you know, I can and I'm sure share a lot, you know, a lot of other closers here share this with me is that we can like I can trip myself up on asking about the wrong thing, because so many other prospects that is where the pain was, but I can't treat this guy like every other prospect because he has a different story. So yeah, I just wanted to say that this is all connecting in a big way for me right now. That's massive guys. How many times as a salesperson, have you heard a pain point and like a knee jerk reflex reaction gone? Ooh, that's a pain point. I better talk about that. Pain points and the pain point or the right pain point are not the same thing. Someone could be, someone could have a pain point that they alienated from their old friend group, but it's not the pain point for them. That's a generic pain point that we're assuming has to be this prospect's pain point. So that's massive part talking about the, as a salesperson, we hear things and we just automatically go there like a reflex. What you should be doing is ask a question, listen to the prospect's response, analyze their response quickly in your head, and then think, where's the pain like where's the problem where's the gap where's the pain of this person's situation his pain is he doesn't have founders that have gone through similar experiences with the rebrand to talk about that's his pain so you have to go there you have to talk about that yeah good stuff cool cool cool taking the feedback as well keep going awesome so harry i mean it sounds like you the old friends and stuff, you felt disconnected from them for a bit. Now you're moving into this new stage of your business, you're going through a rebrand, it's stuff you've never done before, it's got you a little worried. So if I'm understanding you correctly, just not having like those founder connections in person with real relationships, you're missing those conversations that could really guide you to be successful in this rebrand and getting to where you want to go am i am i understanding you correct on that yeah i would say you're 100 right that is a big part of it and another part of it is like building an online business you just don't have much in-person connection at all it feels like like at the start honestly i didn't care but i just wanted to like i said get to where i am now but now i am in this position I think my perspective shifted and it's like, I don't want to just be doing this just to make a bunch of money, but just have no one really to connect with meaningfully, like in terms of friends. So 100% it's about pushing the business and me forward personally, but it's also just about like kind of filling that hole of just not having people in my life right now who I feel like I can connect with in that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense, Harry. um I'm curious to know just right now like how many times a week or a month are you having in person connections with other founders that leave you like feeling like you got your cup filled yeah not much at all like I said I have one friend who's a founder maybe we'll connect every few months we're both traveling a lot so I mean right now other than my family my girlfriend I don't really have anyone in my life who I'm seeing regularly. And I guess that's kind of what's brought us to attention as well. So besides this one kind of founder person that you mentioned before, you guys meet once a month, or maybe once every other month, who else besides that? You said like, not much, but like, how much specifically? Literally no one? Yeah, no one. I mean, I have my team so i have a few like closers on my team and i have a few coaches who i like we might do a retreat and i might meet up with that but the relationship is different right they're employed by me and we do have a friendship but it's just it's not quite the same as having like a group of people who like i can meet up with and socialize and recharge in that sense yeah yeah and when it comes to like this rebrand because it sounds like that's you know really important to you right now what specific kinds of conversations are you wanting to be having with like other founders that have been there done that yes very good but what do you need to change about the question well done Ibrahim instead of what conversations would you like to be having with those founders that you don't currently have right now got it so it sounds like in-person conversations with founders that are meaningful that can help you with the rebrand that you can talk that out is very important to you what specifically are you missing in terms of those conversations right now what are you missing about those conversations we're talking about the current lack not the future game but great question perfect perfect um yeah so harry when it comes to having those conversations and just you know developing relationships with other founders that that could walk you through how they rebranded, you know, their, their fitness companies and so on and so forth that have really been there and done that. What kind of conversations do you feel like are missing right now? Like that you can't have with your team that you can't have with, um, some of your coaches that you could have with other founders? Yeah. Honestly, specifically, I'm not actually sure. Like, I don't, in my head feel like, oh, I need to speak to someone specifically about X content, whatever it is. I just feel like I'm leaving a lot on the table by not having more perspectives around me from people who are in a similar position. Okay. When you say leaving a lot on the table, like, what do you mean by that specifically? yeah like the biggest example is in this whole rebrand process i've kind of been hesitating bivering not really i've been conflicted on how to act and i can sit here and figure it all out alone i'm not concerned about that i'm not necessarily even looking for someone to give me the answers on what to do i just think like for example if i was to go to one of my current friends about this they wouldn't relate at all so it's a useless conversation but i just think if i had someone in my life who does hold themselves to a higher standard generally they probably would have asked the right question or given me some perspective that would have helped me make these decisions quicker and therefore move myself and the business forward okay okay so you not having another founder or other founders that can really like relate to what you're going through is the missing link here. I mean, when it comes to like, you've been leaving a lot on the table too. You mentioned, I'm just connecting the dots here. I guess, how has that had an impact on you not being able to relate to really anyone else going through what you're going through? I'm a bit lost. Like, what was the question? Yeah, so I'm just curious, not having that group or other founders who can truly relate to what you're building. and going through that process. You mentioned, you know, it's not even really what they might have to say about it, but just having that connection with others that can relate, it sounds like that's kind of the missing piece for you leaving a lot on the table and not getting to where you want to go. So I'm just wondering, like, from your perspective, what's been the true impact of you not having people that can relate to what you're building, that you can relate to? and vice versa yeah that makes sense i mean there's a few different things in terms of one i would say like there's probable i mean there has been a financial impact on the business right like i said we've been kind of at a standstill because of my lack of decisiveness but more importantly like what i feel like i'm leaving on the table is like going through this process of kind of realizing that i'm not as aligned with how i'm portraying myself online as i would like to be I feel like I'm kind of working in a business that I'm not as passionate about as I used to be. So I've kind of lost in terms of leaving on the table. The money is part of it. But it's more like waking up every day and kind of thinking, I just don't have that excitement anymore. Like I'm not building something I'm actually proud of. And I'm now at this weird crossroads of like, if I want to get there, I'm probably going to have to take a step back to go forward. So part of it is not knowing how to navigate that but the bigger part of it is just like like I said not really feeling like I have the same sense of purpose that I used to okay so you're feeling like you don't have the same sense of purpose that you used to you're building something that's just not as meaningful you've wasted time kind of floundered around a bit there's been a financial impact to that leaving money on the table what changed for you recently harry that made you realize like you know enough was enough that you you needed to put yourself around a like-minded group of founders had a question before that if you're going to go there what question would make that a lot more powerful um well we know you know what changed what was the turning point what do we need to know it's going to make this question 100 times more powerful if i do this for you but if this is my piece of paper okay and on the piece of paper i'm going to do a little circle like that and that's and that's the turning point given that there's just a dot on the whole piece of paper what else do you need on the piece of paper to have context that's the turning point what else are there other another dot a few more dots what what what are the other dots representing failures chain. Imagine if I change it to this. So now I've got a dot and I've got a straight line. What's the straight line representing his founder journey? Well timeline timeline? Yeah, right. Yeah, you can't you can't you can't ask about a turning point moment when the turning point is just in the middle of the ether. Oh, there's a turning point turning point relative to what? Right? Okay, so how long? How long have you been feeling this way? Exactly. Okay. Yep. Okay. Otherwise, that question just just goes off the top of their head. It doesn't really do anything. The other thing I would have done to improve it slightly is you said you've been lacking purpose, which was the last thing Harry said. That was true. He said that. But I would have stacked it with all of the other power words that he gave you. So you've been lacking passion, excitement, you're not feeling proud, and you don't have purpose. Is that accurate? Bang. Four words. He gave you all of those. So you may as well stack them all together. I wouldn't just finish on the last one. Got it. So you're lacking purpose. No, he was lacking passion, excitement, not feeling proud, and purpose. Now, a little minute one here, guys. He said, I'm not feeling proud. Why would I not do this? So you've been lacking passion, excitement, pride, and purpose. Why would I not say pride? You're changing my language, right? So it's going to be less powerful. It's not the exact words that came out your mouth. even though it's the same word technically i'm switching it to past tense it's just a slight deviation from harry being able to associate with the word so even like little things like this matter guys if you're trying to be grammatically correct you would say you're lacking passion excitement pride and purpose i'm not trying to be grammatically correct i'm trying to be correct to the prospect's words not grammar correction does that make sense guys it's important you understand that all right it's like if any of you have ever looked at copywriting when you study copywriting most sentences in copywriting start with and and this if you studied anything in english literature they tell you never start a sentence with and the things that you do to be persuasive which copywriting is salesmanship in print it's just written salesmanship aren't technically accurate grammar okay so don't focus on grammar focus on being accurate to the prospect what's persuasive what's persuasive is to take their exact word and say it back to them in the exact past present future tense exactly how they said it okay all right keep going from there but okay harry so you've been lacking purpose. You haven't been proud of what you're building. You know, you're just not as passionate about it. There's been a lack of excitement and that's caused you obviously to be leaving a lot on the table. There's a financial element to that. How long have you felt like you've been in this, this situation? One slight change to that good. What would I change slightly? You disassociate. How long has that been going on? No. You said, How long have you felt like you've been in that situation? How long have you been in that situation? Felt like you're in that situation is still disassociating him from being in the situation. Yeah. And these things add up through the call, guys. It's telling the prospect that I don't really think that's real. It's just your own reality. And I'm not really respecting that and the gravity of all of that. Correct. and then you and Harry are on one side of the table looking over talking about Harry's feelings oh I feel like this and I feel like that and my feelings are over here we're not we're not on the same side of the table talking about Harry's feelings you're on one side of the table asking Harry about his situation does that make sense okay and I drew a call on Wednesday but I drew a diagram showing the purpose of your questions is to bring the prospect down into the right state when you have little issues with the way you phrase things the impact is it doesn't pull the prospect down into the right state it doesn't bring them down into a painful state they go nowhere near as deep okay so that's why it matters all right keep going doing good perfect okay harry so you felt a lack of purpose not as not not as much excitement um you said you haven't been proud of what you're building and that's leaving a lot on the table you know there's a financial component to that as well how long has that been going on for you i would say probably for about three four months now three four months okay and why after three to four months i would get one other timeline but because what you asked is fine but i want to make sure that what harry's saying is 100 the truth of the situation and there's a question that we could ask that's going to make him have to be crystal clear in the timeline any idea what that would be what if you said this okay got it so for the last three four months you've you've been in that situation where you didn't feel the passion you didn't feel your excitement you don't feel proud of what you're doing you don't feel the purpose let me ask you this when was the first time that you realized you needed to rebrand harry he probably won't say three four months ago if it was a real prospect he'll be like oh that was 12 months ago so now the timeline has gone from four months to 12 months ago because what am i going to do at some point if i can i'm going to show him the 12 months has cost him financial loss for 12 months not for four months that's three times as much time so the number will be a lot bigger so i would ask that question as well to get another timeline all right go from that's great Okay. So Harry, you've, you mentioned that you haven't felt a sense of purpose building your company. There's been less excitement. You haven't been as proud of what you're building. Um, that's had financial impacts. How long has that been going on for you? Yeah, I would say three, four months, three, four months. Okay. Okay. Let me ask you this, Harry. Um, you mentioned this rebrand. how long ago did you first have the idea that you should be rebranding? Be careful. If you say first had the idea, you can't show someone the financial cost from an initial idea to today. What you can show them the cost of accurately is when you knew that you needed to rebrand. Now, knew you needed to doesn't mean you did it, doesn't mean you started anything but it was the decision moment of i have to rebrand so be very careful and another example of this is when like your prospect says i make between five and ten grand a month and for the closer it would be beneficial to tell the prospect they make the least amount so you say got it so for the last 12 months you've made five grand a month no i said five to ten grand a month and you're picking the smaller number to try and box me in a corner prospects don't like that and you shouldn't ethically do that anyway so it's better to just say when was the time when you knew a rebrand was necessary oh that was eight months ago 10 months ago 12 months knew it was necessary knew it was what you needed to do however you phrase it but i wouldn't say the idea because okay that's a great great call out okay don't don't go back and do it again go from where we're at so okay i've asked harry you've asked harry harry's gonna answer the question of what the timeline is and then you're going to carry on from there okay okay with the rebrand question no you've already asked that question harry's gonna say a number so 10 months 12 months two years whatever and then go from there yeah so but i would say i i was thinking about it for for quite some time but i would say i i kind of realized that it was what i wanted to do what are we in January now, about 10 months ago, I would say. Just under a year ago, I've kind of been thinking about the rebrand. Okay. So almost a year since you knew it was necessary to go forward with the rebrand. Okay. So let me ask you, Harry, why now are you making the decision to put yourself in a position where you're around founders who, you know, have been there, done that, gone through these rebrands, you know, to really fill your cup in that way. Like what happened recently that really, you know, put this, put this on the map for you. So two things that could bite you in the ass here. If we haven't asked him, is there anything else that he's tried to do over those 12 months? You're assuming a little bit that this is the first and only time, and it could bite you in the ass the other thing is i would contextualize the question given that it's been 12 months of you knowing that you need to rebrand but it doesn't sound like you've actually executed of the fact that the lack of this decision has meant that he hasn't made progress on the rebrand whereas you just were asking generically was the turning point now i would stack it with the turning point being it's been 12 months and you haven't completed the rebrand okay even that why now but before that i would say okay so it's been 12 months since you knew you needed to rebrand obviously based on our conversation harry that hasn't happened i'm curious over the last 12 months when and i would ask this question to get there more ethically over the last 12 months when did you have the awareness that the thing that would get you over this hump was having alignment with other founders that have had similar experiences to what you're looking to do oh that was eight months in now i'm moving the timeline to be more accurate got it during the eight months since you've known that is there anything else that you've tried to get access to those founders that could get you over this if he says yes then we need to know what happened why it didn't work and then why now is the new time to try again if he says no we just skip all of that and go interesting so given that you knew that eight months ago and you haven't tried anything i'm wondering has something shifted that now you're actually taking action on getting this problem solved so what i'm doing guys with all of these individual questions is making sure there's no leaks there's no fucking way that harry could combat me argue with me try and go against me because i've not missed a beat and that's what you want to do on the sales but you don't want to drop the ball on anything because the prospect will worm through it and they'll worm through it in one of two places they'll do it now and they'll just try and not answer your questions or they'll go along with your questions now and at the end of the call when you drop the price they'll tell you they have a wife that they don't actually have that they need to go and ask and literally guys they people fucking prospects lie about so much shit in the objections and no disrespect to the prospect because they should lie about it because you haven't shown them that you're on the ball enough that they should respect you to not lie why should they give you the honest truth to a fucking stranger that wasn't concentrating on the sales call they'll tell you i need to ask my dog what brand not brand what breeds your dog uh uh because they don't have a dog right they'll just tell you fucking anything i need to check my finances yeah fine i'll give you 30 seconds check your bank account oh i already knew what the number is they just lied to you and and this is not criticizing prospects guys because if you drop the ball as many times as most salespeople do of course they're gonna lie to you right all right keep going from there wait can i ask two questions josh of course you can harry would you have asked like what changed 12 months ago where you realize you need to rebrand or you just don't think it's necessary could do i don't think it's an 80 20 okay like the 80 20 isn't why 12 months ago you needed to rebrand the 80 20 is why now has it cost you too much to not to not make a decision to fix this sure that's the 80 20 like what happened 12 months ago you know you fucking saw an advert for tommy hill figure and you're like oh yeah i want my brand to look like that do i really care no not really but what i do care about is it's been eight months you haven't got this solved why now okay in other words i'm attaching the commitment to the decision that i want you to make i don't really care about your commitment to a decision that you made in the past your commitment to the decision to rebrand does that really help you and i on this sales call not really got it makes sense the other thing i was going to say in the question you asked it was basically around like you kind of assumed that i believed getting around founders would be the thing to solve the problem right would you have asked like got buy-in on like do you believe this is the way forward because you kind of just assume that and maybe it's because i'm on a sales call here today that i'm here because i believe it's the solution make sense i thought great question i thought you'd already said that if not then you're spot on i thought you'd already said you know i'm struggling with the rebrand because i don't have people to talk about it and therefore i'm scared is that not what you said i did say that maybe it's just as the prospect i was feeling like because i kind of mentioned that with not having a group of friends so i i kind of did say it i just feel like as the prospect i don't know why my gut's feeling me like i would have needed to be tied down on that again fair enough great point then yeah then yeah i would have missed that because i i thought we'd already covered that so yeah great point okay could have dropped the ball can i just recap what we just went through just for my own sake um so there was the opportunity to get the timeline right so instead of going back to when did something shift for you to make you realize that this is what you need? Josh, you went back to 12 months for the rebrand to extend that out. And when did you know that that's what was necessary for you to do? Now we've got a longer timeline. Since then, when was the point that you realized having a group of founders could help, you know, get you through this process? And then it's like, okay, now we're eight months in. So now we have that timeline. And then at that point, we need to understand what have you done since realizing you needed a high level group of founders? What like, what have you tried? Right? And then if it's something else, now we need to figure out, okay, what was it? Why didn't that work? Why are you trying again? And if it hasn't been anything, then we need to ask, well, why now are you deciding to do something about it? Correct. And to be clear, guys, that bit in the middle there over the eight months is not the same thing as we're checking for solutions for future pacing for our pitch or for our product or our service. It's not that. The reason we're going into that is because I need to understand the prospect's commitment level. Commitment level today to do something about this. I'm not asking about solutions to know, oh, they tried X, Y, Z, and it didn't work. Therefore, I'm going to change my pitch to not say that or to say something different. It's not why we're doing it. Neither are we going into that to go, okay, so you had ABC and that didn't work. So what do you feel you need now? Oh, I feel I need X, Y, Z. No, we're not going into that. I just need to know, okay, you did try things before. It didn't work. It's now been five months since you've tried again. What's changed now that your commitment has shifted to today? Or if he hasn't done anything for eight months that's a red flag why after eight months and therefore why now do you have commitment i'm going into the past solutions not to understand the solutions to understand the commitment does that make sense guys i don't want you to get confused on that okay all right keep going from there but all right harry so you decided that rebranding was really the necessary step about 12 months ago uh i mean since then at what point did you realize that putting yourself around a group of founders that had been through that would be necessary for you to be successful and in the rebrand yeah honestly that was more recently so it's obviously january 2nd i kind of visited my hometown for christmas holidays see the family etc um and one of my old group of friends actually kind of called me and said that there's a big group of people getting together like it'd be good if i could come and i thought you know what like i haven't seen these guys and it'd probably been about two years um i'll go down and kind of see how things are and it was in that moment actually i i got to it was like a gathering like a social event type thing i got through all the introductions and the the formalities and i kind of sat down and just realized like fuck am i still just doing this like am i still just i i think the time away kind of made me realize that sorry made me forget why i stopped associating myself with these people and then i thought you know what i'll give it another go got there and i kind of just had a moment where everyone was kind of drinking and standing around and socializing and i was kind of just sitting there on one of the tables thinking like this isn't where I want to be um and I think that's where I kind of connected the dots that I think the biggest lack in my life right now is just not being around more people who are going to drive and push me on and be at a higher standard does that make sense it makes total sense when did you say that moment took place that was actually on christmas eve so okay december yeah okay and so after that moment at what point did you commit to decide that you were going to look for a higher level group so with something i've kind of been aware of like i i think about six months ago i did look at joining like an online mastermind but there wasn't that much like in-person connection and meetups so i kind of just decided against it so i think concrete so i had that kind of epiphany moment on christmas eve and then from there i remember coming home and i think it was the day after christmas i kind of let it all sink in i i was journaling to myself and i realized like i need to try and find a group of people who i can relate to and that's ever since then i've of been kind of jumping on calls like this okay okay and so have you given yourself a deadline for joining a community to start building some of these relationships not before the deadline there was a missing piece of information in what harry said that will help you tie him down did you catch what it was i was getting a little not hung up but like it kind of went back in time further and I was wondering if okay Christmas Eve was the turning point but this has been something he's been thinking about for longer and then he tried another mastermind and then it was like Christmas Eve was the turning point but I probably missed it overthinking in the weeds Harry you mentioned that the other masterminds that you looked into didn't have enough in person yeah what is enough for you right now am i continuing yeah yeah um the other person they don't they don't one meet up a year so i don't have like a number in my head like oh i want to meet founders every six weeks but like once a year it just didn't feel worth it okay well to make sure that we do have alignment would once every six months is that right for you that's definitely better i guess that's why i'm kind of trying to figure out what makes sense now i think ideally i would want more than once every six months okay once a week that's probably too much i would say once a quarter would be ideal at least like i can go once a quarter and connect with some people got it because i'm busy pause so watch what i did guys he had a missing piece of information it was not enough i asked him well how much is enough he said i don't know which is bullshit but that's what most prospects will do. So I said, you know, I just went for half once every six months knowing full well that he would say no, but I have to start somewhere. And then watch what I did, guys. I swung the pendulum all the way to the other side so that Harry just had to meet me in the middle by telling me the fucking answer. Yeah. Okay. So not once every six months, once a week. No, that's too much. And it became like a bit of a, we both are laughing at each other about the fact that you should have just told me the real answer, but Hey, we're here now. And then boom, once every quarter. Now, what's that done? And this goes back to MJ's question. All of a sudden, because I'm the person that has asked those questions, Harry now associates me with being the person that has that solution. Because I'm the one that knows Harry wants once a quarter. So me carrying on with the sales call is almost presumptuous that, well, we must be there or somewhere near there otherwise i'm not going to carry on with the sales call so i know now once every quarter is what he's looking for so you have to cover that piece of information you miss you miss that so good yeah harry do you have any points to add on that as far as if that was you know did you drop that in there intentionally or what was going on there as a prospect no i i was just trying to be a real prospect i didn't want to make it easy but no i it makes perfect sense to me i think he was on the ball all right but keep going from there then so imagine we've already done what i just did you can jump in where you were carrying on from there okay actually i do have a question sorry it just popped into my head i see but you put in the group chat you guys do it once per month is that right in our in our major cities okay would you just ask that would you just say like we do it once a month how does that sound no no because you this is where you've got to understand human beings and the human condition guys you know if i invite you around for dinner and i say harry we're cooking chicken do you like chicken you'll just fucking say yes unless it's absolutely gonna make you vomit everywhere even if you don't really like chicken you'll just say yes because people are polite guys so he's booked you the prospect of booked in a call do you want to make it look like to bart that you've wasted his time already no do you want to waste your own time already no do you want to hear the pitch and see if you change your mind anyway yes of course you do so i don't want to have all of these vaguenesses in the conversation i want it to be we've got specifically what your ideal situation is it's once a quarter it's not because i just told you what we've got and you could say yes or no i don't want to do that no definitely not so so you're just grounding like the converse you know you've spoken in the past about the climbing hooks like as we go through the conversation you're grounding it in what the prospect wants not trying to drag it and ground it over to like this is what we have do we kind of fit in that makes sense 100 and one of the key things to remember guys in sales you are asking questions never telling information oh yeah there's like a universal law don't give information like so even asking the question of will we do it once a quarter is that all right oh sorry once a month is that all right you're still giving information the person that gives information is the one that's lost control and lost leadership yeah don't do a little bit approval seeking as well like exactly that's exactly why you're like oh i don't i you know you're feeling needy and in scarcity to be like oh i want to call with an unqualified prospect oh i don't want to waste my time you know let me just double check if this is a fit whereas if you were in pure abundance you wouldn't care either way you're just like cool what are you looking for and you're just holding your cards close to your chest because you're in abundance it's literally like in poker guys you're just you're just bluffing that you've got a full full full house in your hand even if you don't because you win by playing with scarce playing with abundance not scarcity and even if i do because literally we have a quarterly big summit and then we have monthly you know in-person meetups which sound like for harry it would be you know music to his ears but even though i would still keep that for later because then it's just going to be like oh shit he didn't even say that like there this is exactly what i'm looking for exactly yeah remember it like this guys you as the closer are the one deciding not the prospect deciding if i say we do it once a month is that all right or how does that fit whatever now i'm giving the power of decision to the prospect it's me that decides therefore i need to ask you the questions and see if you fit into what i believe or what i'm looking for is out of a prospect all right keep going from there guys you're doing very good keep going okay harry so you know that one mastermind you checked out they didn't meet up frequently enough but sorry to interrupt guys martin had a great question so if they say something out of alignment let's role play that harry great question martin so you're gonna say um we've gone into you know how many minutes one one week and you've said no that's too much and i've said okay what are you looking for then or you you i think just carried on and you've said in fact let's do this let's say you said one a week okay yeah so you've said one a week okay cool any particular reason that you pick that frequency yeah um i just feel like i've been deprived from socializing for too long now i really want to get out there and make this a regular part of my week it's kind of something i thought of like every week i want to go out and meet these people and really build a new friendship group i think any longer i'm just probably not going to be able to build a meaningful connection makes sense and you said to build the connection is there some kind of separation for you between the building phase and then the maintenance phase not quite sure what you mean by that as in if you want to meet people once a week to build the connection but then once you've got those connections you would actually want to or prefer or it might be more suitable to meet once a month or once a quarter is there any difference in kind of the the initial period versus the long term for you i wouldn't say there's a there's a huge difference in that for me i just think like i do want to be making this part of my weekly routine in terms of socializing with more aligned people i feel like any longer i i don't know it just doesn't quite feel like what I'm looking for. Got it. So from now on for the indefinite future, you want to have meetups in person with these people that align aligned with you with similar experiences every single week. Yeah, potentially not forever, but at least for the next six to 12 months. Sure. I mean, we don't know what's around the corner, but the indefinite future meaning that's your plan for now and you don't have any foresight into a change of that plan. yeah got it so just to make sure we're not misaligned before we potentially go further on this call the meetups that we do are not weekly they're actually once a month now that doesn't mean that in between that members don't typically meet up on their own calendar on their own clock how do you feel about that i i was hoping for something more frequent like i said not like it wouldn't work but yeah where are the meetups well before we get to where the meetups up let's see if we're even aligned with the frequency of the meetups you seem very not not interested in the idea of it being less frequent and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that there's no judgment on my end all i want to say is that if you specifically want a weekly meetup that is structured by whatever mastermind or community you're joining, then we wouldn't have alignment on that. Because that's just not what we offer. That makes sense. Yeah. Potentially, this just isn't the right fit. And that's fine. Potentially not. Now, what I would recommend is, you know, I'm sure there's other people out there that do do a similar weekly type of meetup to what you're looking for. The only thing you need to look at is with the frequency, do any of the other things that you're looking for kind of fall off in other words sure you might be meeting people once a week but are they going to be the people that are running seven figure businesses or are those people actually too busy to meet or want to meet every single week so the reason i bring that to your attention is you know go away do your research have a look but if you do find that the balance between the frequency the caliber the specific mastermind that you want to joined the values of that actually puts us more back into alignment they're definitely happy to revisit this conversation if you get to that point on your own so fair enough that makes total sense i appreciate you letting me know the question i guess i would have is how would i i mean you're involved with this company right how would i be able to know the caliber of people before just getting involved no typically you'd see their instagrams their socials you might even see case studies from you know people that have said hey i've been in this mastermind you just need to know what type of person you're looking for because okay the quantity of people in a mastermind and the quantity of the frequency of times that you meet up are not the only two variables it's also who's in the mastermind so you need to weigh up those different variables understood got you cool and that's it guys if it's genuinely not aligned it's genuinely not aligned the only thing i did to make sure if we are aligned is what are you looking for fair enough told him that that's not what we do sorry asked him why he's looking for that and he gave a legitimate reason it wasn't you know oh i haven't really thought about it i just chose a week because then i can plan it weekly if there was no legitimate reason then we'd have to go deeper on that so i asked him why he told me a legitimate reason he's been isolated for so long he wants it in his calendar that's important for him and i then unsold which by the way the unsell is not a tactic it's cool we're just not aligned which is totally fine then the final thing i did is let harry know respectfully there are other things to consider and if you do go and consider those things and you want to come back this conversation is not the end of the road for us you're always welcome to come back and have another conversation if you step into alignment with how we run our service which is we do it once a month does that make sense everyone yeah big takeaway for me there was like you kind of double check like i think i've been too quick sometimes i don't know if anyone else can relate to this in unselling people or as soon as there's that first kind of sign that there is an alignment like just getting off the call okay no worries do your thing but you kind of almost tied me down to being fully unaligned like you were just like just before we do proceed i just want to double check like basically subtext are we completely unaligned here yes okay no worries and then like gracefully get them off the call but i think for certain people in the past i've kind of unsold they've got off the call and i thought to myself maybe they were just looking for a way out or maybe there would have been a way to proceed but i'm not tying them down to that fully so that was interesting yep anybody else got takeaways on that but i know you put a emoji in no i mean all this is gold really good i was uh curious in terms of where to go next uh if we were in alignment so i'm glad really glad uh who was it martin that asked the question um but let's say you know he is looking for the once a month perfect that's exactly what we have now we're in the territory of like are you committed you know why like yeah we'll jump we'll jump back into the role play before we went on that tangent i'm just catching up with the chat here so a bunch of you are saying like do we not show him compare and contrast with his buddy and tell him you know you're not going to find the caliber no you can ask them if you want but at the end of the day guys if someone's like i want weekly meetups you can say can i share a different perspective with you do you think there's any possibility that the people you're looking to meet are not going to want to go for a weekly meetup. There's two problems with that, guys. Number one, he will say, I don't know, and I'd like to go and do my research before I give you $20,000 anyway. So what benefit was that? You're not going to change their mind to the point that they're going to pay on this call. They might come back on a two call close, but in between, they're going to go and do the same fucking thing that I just said which is go and research on your own and I know that so I'm not going to try and change their mind the second thing that's going to do is if you think about it logically do you think the people that you're looking for are going to want to have a weekly meetup he just said I'm looking for people on a similar level of experience to me so basically what you're doing by saying that is like well are you below them then that's not going to sit very well with the prospect. You want to meet once a week and the people you're looking for don't want to meet once a week. Well, that means you're below them. That means you're inferior to them. In this context, guys, you can't do that. If a guy said, I want to meet with people above my level, I want to get in a bigger group of people that are way ahead of me. Absolutely, I'd be reframing this guy. Well, you want to meet every week. Do you think part of the reason you want to meet every week is because you're at the level you're at and the people that are at the level you want to get to aren't going to be meeting once a week and therefore you need to actually step into their way of operating so that you can never get around them in the first place yes cool then i can do that but if he's saying i want to be around people on the same similar level experiences to me then you can't really say well they don't want to meet once a week does that make sense so it's all contextual all right let's jump back into the role play we will probably go for another 15 minutes total max maybe 10 we'll see i don't remember bart where you want to go from we'd basically done he uh doesn't want to do once a week he wants to do once a quarter you obviously do once a quarter that's fine so you're going to go from there okay let's see yeah and harry you you also mentioned um you know right now you're like looking at other groups you know having had this turning point on on Christmas Eve. Sounds like you're, you know, at this point, you're really serious about changing, you know, who you're spending your time with. I'm curious, just like in terms of your, you know, next steps, have you given, Harry, have you given yourself a timeframe for actually joining a certain group and finding what you're looking for? Yeah, timeframe is as soon as possible, really why as soon as possible well i just don't want to wait any longer it's not going to land very well you've got to context yeah given that you've been willing to wait for the last eight months where actually is your commitment and serious level seriousness level to actually joining a mastermind right now and i'm gonna lean out in my question i'm gonna be like you know why now like the data that he's telling us does not corroborate with him being someone that takes immediate action right so if it doesn't i need to uncertainly now and get him to sell me that he's actually going to take action now okay lean out by contextualizing it with the fact that he hasn't done anything for eight months okay okay so okay so as soon as possible um sorry just pause are you okay harry yeah i was going to say something but then i think bar was going to do So it's like, I was just going to say the context you just give about considering you've been waiting eight months was just going to be my reply to his question. So putting that. I was going to go completely. Yeah. You take the rug out from underneath the prospect's feet because you just put the context into the question and they're like, oh, shit, that was going to be my alibi. OK. OK. All right. Go from there. Okay. So, I mean, as soon as possible, given that you've still waited eight months, you know, you've thought about this. I guess, why are you serious to get started with something as soon as possible? why is you're assuming that he is and therefore harry doesn't have to do the buy-in that he is he's just going to answer the question you need to ask him what is your level of seriousness so he has to make a stand and make a commitment that they're very different in this context that's yeah okay harry well uh you want to get started as soon as possible i know you've you know been thinking about this for eight months. Sounds like Christmas Eve, you know, things change for you, just in terms of your, your, your mindset around joining a group. What would you say is your current like level of commitment to actually joining a mastermind? Yeah, Christmas Eve was a real eye opener, really made me quite emotional, actually. So I definitely that's sitting in my mind, I do want to get this done as quickly as possible. Like I feel like the fact that it's taken me eight months is crazy to me anyway so i don't want to leave it a month longer ideally like i want to find the people who i want to be around and i want to get started got it got it josh i feel like here would be where i would go into the you know i feel like we've covered a lot of ground here but i don't even i don't know how to bridge that gap so i feel like that was one of the first times harry gave us some real emotion so i want to pull on the heartstrings. So I would probably just say, you sounded, I don't know, Harry, maybe frustrated or annoyed or fired up. I don't really know the right word for it. But that was the first time in this conversation that I've seen you get more agitated about this is something you need to do. And now is the time that you need to do it. Is that, am I putting the tea leaves together accurately there yeah 100 like i said i mean having this conversation with you i've realized i probably haven't admitted out loud that i have been wanting to do this for a while and then the christmas eve scenario kind of made me realize that this isn't this potentially the rebrand 12 to 8 months 100 that's a lot of opportunity cost there but then even just still associating with of the old friend group like that's been years in the making so what specifically was was getting you emotional either in this conversation and saying out loud or the christmas situation what specifically is getting you emotional about this i guess just thinking about how much time i've wasted already okay how much time have you wasted at least a year potentially longer well definitely longer at least two three years of just being around low quality people okay and wasting somewhere between two to three years what have you been wasting through the course of that time wasting my time my energy also potentially just like i mean if i was aligned with the right people two three years ago who knows where i could be now right but i just feel like i've been playing this cycle for too long and i guess what sorry let me just pause you you said who knows where you would be now you know somewhat i mean i don't know exactly what life would look like if i was with i know it'd be better i don't know exactly where i'd be but i know i'd be in a better position for sure if you're being honest with yourself if you had have made this decision two years ago you'd have committed to getting around the right people you'd have been able to solve these rebranding problems and having the inspiration etc etc where would you be right now harry what would be different today i would be working in a business that i'm proud of again i'd be actually building a brand and a service that i feel more aligned with something that i'm proud to put my face behind like i said and also i would probably be much more fulfilled in terms of my social life and actually human to human interaction and um i mean god knows the opportunities that could have come from being around the right people what do you think the result would have been of that extra fulfillment alignment purpose being proud of things what do you think the result of that would have been so obviously the business would be would be different um that would probably have come with better financial returns i think now we have this conversation the thing that annoys me the most the thing that i got emotional about was knowing that this is an issue and not doing anything about it why did that annoy you i'm not sure exactly but i just know like i guess the fact that i have to face the fact that this is something i've been somewhat neglecting do you think part of the problem in regards to why you've continued to choose to neglect it is some of the minimizing language that you're using such as i don't know or somewhat minimizing because it sounds from my side looking at this situation that partly if not significantly the reason that you're in this situation is you haven't addressed it head on and said this is a big issue this is a issue right now this is something i need to do every time you talk about it i think you've said i don't know maybe four times in this conversation do you think the person that you need to be that gets this handled doesn't know the cost of not handling it i'd say you're exactly right yeah i think that is the issue is that i am not acting in alignment with the person of myself i want to be there's parts of me like i'm neglecting this and minimizing this 100 it's interesting you said you're not acting in alignment and at the same time you want to be around people that align with you so if you're not in alignment do you want to be around other people that are not in alignment and therefore they're aligned with your lack of alignment you lost me there i think it made sense you didn't understand no you said that you've not been in alignment with who you know you're supposed to be but the whole purpose of this conversation is you want to be around people you said that are in alignment with you but if your current situation is you're not aligned and you want people that are similar to you, hence aligned with you, you're saying you want other people that are also not acting the way they're supposed to be acting. They're denying things, they're procrastinating, they're putting things off. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. So do you think ultimately the biggest reason that you are not around people that are truly aligned is because you've not been aligned on taking the actions that you know you need to take? yeah exactly do you think you ever deserve to be around people that are aligned with the success that you want to have if you don't show up and act like that person as well no yeah i think i think that's the the root of the issue is i don't feel like i don't deserve to be around aligned people i get where you're coming from and i that is true but i just haven't taken the initiative to actually cut off from the old people and seriously take action towards getting around the new people do you want to continue to not take that action and continue to just be in limbo well no that's why i'm on the call so how much longer are you willing to continue to not take the action that you know you need to take and be in this middle of the road place not any longer cool done notice guys that sometimes the prospect will voice it sometimes they won't but when you both know like harry said oh yeah that's the root cause of the problem then you pretty much got to the bottom of the well you don't really need to go any further because then you're just kind of hovering around the bottom the root cause of the problem was we've got all the data on everything but truth be told harry was saying he wants to be around people that are aligned with him but actually he doesn't because if they were truly aligned with him they would be people that were unaligned he wants to be around people that are aligned with their actions and their words and their business and their rebranding and whatever which means you have to become that person and we went on a little miniature hero's journey there for harry a little internal mastery workshop and all of a sudden he's like oh yeah i get it he gets it within himself he understands that i know what I'm doing and therefore he wants to buy from me and he's now associating the conversation around inner alignment with the community that's going to be on the back end of taking action so there's like this three-pronged approach to getting him to be ready to commit okay does that make sense deep fried there's absolutely no way there like that guy can't close it feels like as like there was parts you are you are wrapped up in a nice little bow there yeah yeah because we're not wrapping them up guys in logic loops which is what a lot of sales people try and do like it's like you know if yes no but and all these like little logical traps i'm wrapping you up in in spiritual loops and you can't fucking escape that you know like even if you go to bed and you try and sleep unless you're a narcissist your conscience will eat you alive until you come back to me which is why i don't do follow-up because you'll come back to me because i've ethically wrapped you up in being aligned with what you want in life if you truly want this you have to be that person and nobody except a narcissist can argue with that because deep inside all of us we all know the truth will set you free whereas what a lot of salespeople do they try and tie people up in logical traps so people can just you know deny that they're in a logical trap and go to bed but the thing that always eats away inside of you is your conscience your conscience is your alignment or out of alignment with spiritual truth you can't escape your conscience guys it comes with you wherever you go and so if you start based on that then you i had a light bulb there because like when you asked me that how much longer question i was kind of like trying of think in my head like is there any like little ways out here like is there any like logistics i can ask about a program or like can i say yeah like i don't want that to go on any longer but as long as the program aligns xyz and the light bulb was that how much longer question isn't like necessarily like how much longer are you willing to logically and logistically put up with this problem that's caused you xyz and all of these like logical pain points and costs of inaction it's like how much longer are you willing to continue to not be the person you want to be is basically what you're saying it's like i don't want to fucking be that anymore exactly you're always asking them how much longer are you willing to not be the person that you know you need to be to get this thing yeah it's almost like instead of getting the prospect to try and fight against you to give you an objection or to say they're not going to buy whatever you're actually getting the prospect to fight against themselves and they have to beat the lower version themselves and then they're going to take action now what that does is it means that you cannot be collateral damage because they're not even fighting you anyway they're fighting themselves right it's like if any of you know the art of war divide and conquer if you want to defeat a nation you get the nation to fight with inside itself you don't get them to fight against you because even if you win the war you're going to have a lot of casualties you don't want to do that just get the prospect to fight against themselves and their higher conscience and you can't be collateral damage okay strategy guys all right folks that is us does anybody have any questions or significant takeaways what's up what's up guys amazing role play i think that's probably one of the best ones i've been on since uh being in the mastermind that was fucking awesome I thought you were going to say of 2026. Can you imagine? I guess my biggest takeaways were the first one was, I think Harry mentioned, kind of, you know, tying down before you unsell and just having the grace with the prospect to really dig into the data a little bit to get concrete rather than just like losing your patience and going quickly to unsell. taking your time slowly to make sure you have all grounds covered the same way you would do a normal call take your time and then unsell when it's 100% for you 100% for them but that was brilliant and then the second piece which is something that I've been struggling recently on calls is sometimes I've been asking when I ask the how much longer question I've been doing it in terms of how much longer do you want to not have the tactics? Instead of getting to the truth of why are you showing up as a person who hasn't solved the problems of not having the tactics, going to the identity level and then asking them, well, how much longer do you want to, you know, quote unquote, keep showing up as this person knowing it essentially guarantees you fail. And that was like a fucking, just a huge unlock for me. Like it was honestly like I was smiling, laughing to myself, like, Oh, thank god this happened um so awesome stuff guys thank you josh great takeaways you're very welcome brother biggest takeaway for me i'm just going to give one is the the 80 20 of responses i know we've spoke about it a lot over different trainings like it's not how you say it it's are you focused on the right thing moving forward um but just to take that a level deeper one thing i've seen in myself is sometimes i get data and specifics and go deeper on the 20 which just doesn't move the conversation forward and it's like not irrelevant but it's a 30 minute discovery you need to be picking the right information to move forward but more importantly as well it's not only about what is the you labeled it like in the grass field what is the big shiny red ball it's not specifically like what did they say that you need to dig into it's sometimes also like what is missing from what they've said that is causing this to not add up without that context that's huge think of it just like a conversation you know someone can lie and they give some massive fucking lie or someone can have a massive lie by omission like they just miss out a piece of information and you're like you've missed out a fucking huge piece of information like that's still a massive lie right so obvious that makes a lot of sense all right but yeah appreciate it thank you eric okay nice one but all right chris what's up what's up everybody uh loved it uh two takeaways and then a question and then you mentioned it's your conscious closing you and when you closed me it lit my feedback was it was like my my own conscious was closing myself it was wonderful so uh two takeaways this kind of reminded me of pulp fiction the movie because there's these non-linear um timelines and so and then tying down the timelines so like stacking it all right it's been eight months it's been 12 months i think the big one was when did you decide that you had to start doing the rebranding and it's like and so he basically had a flashback and then he tied down the flashback in the movie and then the other one was take the rug out so they don't have an alibi and i think the context was given that you haven't taken any action for eight months why is now the time and then harry had the feedback was like oh that was going to be my response to that so i noticed that prospects have alibis all the time and can you can you talk on that concept of take the rug out so they don't have an alibi then what's maybe some common alibis that our prospects have putting me on the spot there chris yeah I don't know if I can perform under pressure. What is some common alibis that people have? I mean, frankly, a lot of the alibis that people have are in the discovery. They will try and tell you things like, oh, I've been super busy. But then if you've got another piece of data, let's take Jacob's offer, for example, the tax offer. too busy to save $500,000 a year in tax. And so when you connect two pieces of data, often a lot of the alibis that people are saying just don't add up. So it could be time, it could be busyness, but not just time as in I've got five different plates that I'm spinning, but actually, if you look at the five different things they're doing, only one of them is making them any fucking money. Only one of them is getting them any results. They could have an alibi that's like, situational for the offer. So for example, on a dating offer, the alibi could be, oh, yeah, I'm not going on any dates because where I live, there just isn't attractive women, which is like what in the whole of Los Angeles, there's not a single attractive woman, which I've heard prospects try and say that to me on a sales call. And so the alibi will usually be, it begins with the prospects denial to themselves, but it's only executed because of the social assumption that other people will be too nice to say anything against it. I'll break that down. So the prospect is in denial to themselves. So they say, oh, there's no attractive women in LA. But the only reason they actually say that out loud on a sales call is because they know 99.9% of people are programmed to agree with other people. Oh, yeah yeah la can definitely be hard oh yeah there's definitely some ugly chicks in la whereas you're not the 99.9 you're on this training and in this mastermind to be the 0.1 percent and so just immediately all of these alibis that people express can't get past your nice guy filter does that make sense a perfect sense yeah yeah love it big one it's another one in the training of like understanding human beings and like you're obviously a well-read guy chris spiritual as well one of the uh memes that is a very powerful one to always remind yourself of have you seen see no evil speak no evil hear no evil have you heard that one absolutely that's absolutely metaphor for the human condition our eyes will deceive us our ears will deceive us and our own mouth will deceive us and so the alibis come in those three forms your eyes your ears or your mouth that's good see the prospect has some baller background they've got a bunch of trophies you as the closer feel intimidated because they're obviously a g but if you actually dug into their revenue last month you find that they've been in the negative for the last two years your eyes deceived you but because most people follow the deception of their eyes, they would just assume this person's a baller because they've got a nice background, they've got a nice office, they're doing well. Your ears, the prospect says, oh, things are fine. Interesting, so if things are fine, any particular reason we're on this call, don't do that because you assumed that what you heard from the prospect was actually the truth. Okay, when you say things are fine, how much did you make last month? Oh, well, you know, last month was not a very good month. okay what about the last month well it's actually been pretty shit for the last six months so what i'm wondering chris is given that things have been pretty shit for the last six months in fact more than pretty shit by the look of the numbers here why are you continuing to tell yourself that things are fine is that part of the problem so your ears have deceived you and then your mouth deceives you when you yourself say something on a sales call the prospect says i've done this example on a real sales roleplay before. Prospect says, sorry, a call review before. So a real call. Prospect says, I have no money because all the data's exposed that. Two minutes later, the prospect says, we're just about to have a baby. And the closer says, congratulations. No, your mouth is deceiving you. If someone has no money and they're three months away from having a baby, why the fuck are you saying congratulations you should be like shit you've got no money no plan and you've got a baby on the way so your mouth deceived you and so as closers hence why it's all about self-actualizing inner work and becoming the next version of yourself if we want to put it into a simple meme you have to overcome the see no evil speak no evil and hear no evil which is the self-deceptions that we trick ourselves into when we're trying to interact with other human beings does that make sense perfect i'm very glad i asked the question that was my best performance chris there you go yeah thank you thank you always a pleasure best call of the year let's go this has been this has been absolutely awesome uh truly i i have the day off and i was i was thinking about not joining i was like you know what something's i got the spidey sense is this going to be a banger ass call. Um, so Bart, appreciate you role-playing that and making all the adjustments along the way. It was super helpful. Um, I had a couple of quick takeaways and then I have two quick questions. Biggest takeaway are what the, like understanding what the leaks are and how we need to patch those up fully before moving on. And it's not just about leaving room for them to weasel out, but it's by and large, what I, what I saw here is it showcases like to the prospect geez this guy is on the ball and if he's so on the ball right now like i can't imagine what the program's gonna be like right just build so much trust so much authority and it actually gets the prospect to feel like uh at peace almost at ease parting ways with his money because he's like why i know it's going towards somebody who's just on top of their so that was a big big uh takeaway all right but now we come to you what have you got awesome guys this This was, no, 100% the best role play call of the year. But for me, yeah, this was just massive. And I have a lot of takeaways that are specific to my offer. But a few things that were just really good reminders for me as well were staying present to the present pain and not getting sidetracked based on like, you know, what was it? the old friends from back home and the current circle, because a lot of times that is where the pain is for these prospects. But knee-jerk reaction went there instead of going to where the real pain was, where Harry was trying to build something and didn't have the insights and everything that he was looking for. So with that, it's really just reminding myself that not all pain points are our pain. So don't just rush it. And Josh, you said a moment there, it's kind of like when the prospects talking, you're doing a little analysis in your mind, like, okay, there's these things happening, like what, what's really going on? Where is where is the pain truly? And I think one small distinction I made there was like, when he was when Harry was explaining that, I was like, Oh, well, let me go to the friends, you know, currently, because that's his current group and like maybe that's current situation and i felt like the other one was almost getting into future pacing but where you cut through that was like no the difference is the pain he's feeling now is what's missing right and what's missing is yes what he wants in the future but let's focus on that present pain exactly so that was like a really golden moment for me um i think the 80 20 just concept of walking through like hey where's you know where's where's the real juice in this um and not getting sidetracked with that stuff great takeaways but got them all laid out all right guys two final things and these are important for all of you so did anybody notice how bart was when he just went through his takeaways very enthusiastic guys very fired up up? How much do you think you're going to grow and earn more money and show up on a sales call to serve? If you are enthusiastic that you've been learning things that you've got more tools in your tool belt, that you've got more competency. You should be feeling like this every single day when you either roleplay with me if it's a Wednesday or Friday, or you do a call review. If you're roleplaying with other members in the group, if you're doing your own cool reviews, if you're going through a training, you want to bring that same level of enthusiasm, that same level of being fired up. When I was listening to Bart there going through his takeaways, rattling them off at 250 miles an hour, it reminded me of every time I got feedback from UM and I would be so fucking fired up to go and implement all of that feedback. And that enthusiasm drove my momentum. That enthusiasm drove me to get back on the phones to close more people to go to the next level to keep studying to keep learning to keep developing mastery okay so i want you all to recognize that the second thing you had 25 different takeaways what i need you to do is study those takeaways in your own time so when you've got downtime go through those notes practice them you know verbalize some things out loud go through the state that you'll be in. But when you get on your sales call, forget it all. You have to perform from unconscious competence. Do not go on to your next sales course trying to implement any of the things that we just went through consciously, not even one of them. Study consciously and execute unconsciously. When you get on your sales call, you'll just flow and you'll remember some of them. You'll not remember some of them. That's fine. But if you get to the next level of what you can remember unconsciously, you can build on top of that each consecutive week and month. But if you jump on your next sales calls now trying to be conscious, you won't be in flow, you won't be scriptless, you won't be connecting with the prospects, and you're going to fuck up the call. So you have to just accept that you might get 25 takeaways, and then you just have to study them in your free time and then let them go, knowing that when you turn up to your sales call, you might naturally implement five of them, but to go from zero of them to five extra unconsciously, that's fantastic. That's a huge jump, but don't try and implement 25 of them consciously because even being conscious, not literally conscious, but conscious of trying to implement things on a sales call is the antithesis of being present with the prospect. Does that make sense? Totally. Adding that to the main takeaways. All right, guys, that's us for today. Have a good rest of your day, folks. Thank you so much, Josh. Everybody, best way to start the new year. Let's go. Love the enthusiasm. See you inside. Bye. All right. There you have it. Another high ticket sales role play. At the time of filming, it is now 2026. Yes, a new year has rolled around. And the question I have for you is, was 2025 everything you wanted it to be? Did you retire your parents? Did you buy the supercar? Did you get the watch? Did you get the house? Did you travel business class? Did you go on a private jet? Did you align yourself with other unicorn closers that are all living the life of their dreams? If the answer to any of those is no, and you haven't actually made more than $50,000 a month in commissions, and you haven't started to build the life of your dreams, are you willing to look yourself in the mirror and admit to yourself that it was all your fault? I know that's blunt, but the brutal truth is what you need to face if you actually want to change your reality. inside the unicorn closer mastermind there are closers earning two times three times five times 10 times and even 20 times more than you in commissions every single fucking month they do not have a higher iq than you they are not smarter than you they simply show up put in the work and align themselves with a mentor that has already accomplished the life they want to accomplish earning over a hundred thousand dollars a month and has the ability to teach other high ticket closers how to follow the same exact blueprint that allowed me to do that. At the time of filming, I have four high ticket closers, five if you include myself, that have all followed the unicorn closer blueprint to earning over $100,000 a month in commissions. If that is something that you want to replicate for yourself in 2026, the year has already begun. But step one is you admitting to yourself that 2025 and all the things that you didn't accomplish was all your fault. I know it's brutal. I know it's blunt, but the truth will set you free. The question now is, is today the day that you're finally going to step up, take action, join the Unicorn Closer Mastermind? If the answer is yes, below this video is a link to join the Mastermind. Click that link, go to the checkout page, enroll, and I'll see you on the inside.

Become a Unicorn Closer ➡️ https://unicorncloser.com/?video=eWboAarCrNI

I went from $0 to earning $100,000 a month in commissions within 17 months as a high-ticket closer.

Then, I trained Alex Hormozi’s Gym Launch Sales team, and in 8 weeks took them to their highest close rates in over a year.

Next, I helped scale multiple high-ticket offers beyond $1 Million per month in cash-collected. 

Now, I've helped 4 high-ticket closers earn $100,000 a month in commission inside my Unicorn Closer Mastermind.

They all profited from "Self-Actualized Selling" that I was taught from my Underground Mentor.

Full disclosure, it isn't for most people - especially anyone ok "settling" for $15k per month. 

Unicorns Only: ➡️ https://unicorncloser.com/?video=eWboAarCrNI