Sales Team vs. Founder-Led Selling: Jessica Rhodes on What Actually Works | SalesPOP!

All right, hello and welcome to another Expert Insight interview. My name is John Golden from SalesPop Online Sales Magazine and Pipeliner CRM joining you as usual from a sunny San Diego. And today I'm delighted to be joined by Jessica Rhodes, who is in Rhode Island on the other coast. How are you doing, Jessica? I'm doing great, John. It's so nice to see you. Yeah, you too. And you're the founder of Interview Connections, the world's first and leading podcast booking agency launched in 2013. at a time when there weren't any other agencies and and you started after booking your dad a business coach on podcasts so you could work from home as a new mom which is great and then you have booked over 50 000 podcast interviews a thousand coaches and and you're deeply passionate about helping coaches who feel like the best kept secret to grow their business through authentic human to human podcast connections and here we are in a podcast So there you go. So first of all, I mean, what inspired you to create podcast connections was getting your dad on podcasts? Yeah, interview connections was founded out of desire as you said for me to be a stay-at-home mom but it was through booking my dad on podcasts that led me to see that there were no other agencies or companies or service providers specifically offering podcast placements or podcast booking for podcast hosts i loved doing it there was this demand in the market and so the timing was perfect and i went ahead and founded the company And then here's an interesting, and we could talk about podcasting all day long, but it's got a more interesting subject here. And that's talking about your journey with sales, right? Because obviously, you've set up interview connections. You see there's a demand in the market. Did you initially think, I'm going to need to hire some salespeople? Oh, my gosh, John. So I'm so excited for this interview. So, okay. I started hiring salespeople in 2020, which is six years ago, depending on what people are listening to it, six years ago. And it was actually not something, I mean, I went from 2013 to 2020 before I ever considered bringing on a sales team. And I know that's what we're going to talk about in this interview, but... I do not have a sales team on purpose now. And it took me six years to finally wave the white flag and say, OK, there's something out of alignment here. Having a sales team is not working. And so I'm excited to dissect that for your audience today. Yes. So let's start off. I mean, what was the first thing? I mean, obviously, one of the key indicators of it not working is you're not you know, you're not getting you're not getting lots of sales. But what were some of the other factors that you suddenly started to notice why it wasn't working yeah and over the years we we had a whole batch of sales people and it's not that they never closed sales they they all closed sales here and there it was never that consistent but the thing that i finally came to terms with reason in the relatively recent past is that podcast guesting and specifically the way our service is crafted and who our service is ideal for and how our service is structured is is really right for one particular ideal client avatar. And having a sales team was you know elements of it were great because i had people that were hungry for sales they wanted to close sales and so there was that's why i tried to make it work for six years because i was like gosh if i can figure out how to have a successful sales team i will have money coming in i can step away from the business and just let this agency be a cash cow you know the dream for an agency owner is just like have it all run and you just cash those checks and it never quite got to that point because i realized and i learned that they were hungry to close sales but not everyone was the right fit and i was incentivizing an action i was incentivizing the sale being closed while at the same time telling them don't close that person no they're not the right fit no no don't close because they're not going to have success with us and so there was this just friction that went on for years and that is that because kind of the big reason i said we need to change how we're closing sales here Yeah, and that's really interesting. I just want to underline that for the listeners is, right, so you discovered you had a specific ideal customer profile, like an ICP, right, very specific. But you also, so that was who people should go after. But you're also incenting people to close business, right? So as you said, there's a bit of a friction there because now I'm looking at the ICP if I'm a salesperson and I'm going, hmm. well, this person kind of fits in here and this person sort of maybe kind of fit. And before you know, you know, we're just, just to have volume, we're selling to the wrong people. Exactly. And the way, you know, what we're selling is a podcast guesting service, a podcast placement service. And there's so many nuances to that. There's which types of podcasts, which categories of podcasts is, is it a smaller pool to book in which types of clients? whether it's their mindset or their industry are more difficult to book than others. There's all these details that was very difficult to get any salesperson up to speed on all of the Intel that myself and my service delivery team have. Yeah. And it is, it is interesting because if you think about, uh, you know, podcast guesting, right. It's a relatively new phenomenon. I mean, it's going on a while, you know, we're all kind of veterans of this now, but we forget that. at the beginning like there wasn't that many people doing it and there was a lot of skepticism and now there's obviously a lot more people but there's a lot of people who sort of want think yeah this might be good for me to do but they don't really know what's involved in it so they need so they need somebody who's going to reassure them is going to guide them is going to help them because most people are coming to this pretty much as neophytes right oh for sure and it's not the right marketing strategy for every business owner and that's that's what makes having a sales team just hasn't worked out for me because my sales calls kind of put it in air quotes there for those listening to the audio are really qualifying calls they're discovery calls where i really am trying to figure out Is this even the right next step for your business? Because oftentimes I'll have a call with somebody who's got a nice website, like everything that I can see online seems like they'd be a great client for us. And I'm asking them questions, learning about them and their business and their origin story and what their goals are. And then I say, well, how many clients do you have? What's your average monthly revenue? And they say zero. And I have to say, like, I could book you on podcast. That's not the question. I know I can deliver my service to you. But if I do, you are going to spend. thousands and thousands of dollars for forever seeing a sale close from this investment because it takes time for interviews to get published, to go live, for listeners to take action. And so I'm like, it would be out of integrity. I would feel quite badly if you paid me this money and then it wasn't the right. You need to go get some clients. You need to build up your revenue before you start hiring agencies to do brand building and marketing. And that was a very difficult. skill set to teach a salesperson who is incentivized to close sales yeah no no absolutely and and the interesting thing as well is i mean you would think or on on the surface people might think well you know podcast booking that's very transactional right that's you know somebody wants to be on a podcast calls you up here's some money book me on podcasts right um but but what you're just what you're saying is no in fact it needs to be a very consultative approach because it's not applicable to everybody and and quite frankly we don't want to set up people for failure do you no and like don't get me wrong there are plenty of other companies in my space who are very transactional like and we were that way for a long time it was a lot more transactional for a long time because it was like yeah you want to buy 10 bookings or i'll get you on 10 shows no problem we'll call it a day but we have a monthly membership model and clients can cancel any time and i don't want clients to cancel in two months because we're not getting them sales so that's why for our monthly membership model with no long-term contract for that to be effective as a business uh strategy i need to only sign on clients who i believe will stay with me for a long time because it's the right fit for their business yeah and i think that's a really important point as well is again is that you can grab clients right but whether you can whether you can deliver what they what they perceive their you know they wanted and whether you can retain them is another thing entirely and obviously if you're if you're grabbing the wrong people or people who are like after a couple of podcasts no i'm not really this isn't really for me it's it's not going to help your business right to have a huge turn Exactly. Exactly. And that's why so many consumers, so many prospects out there for us all are so burnt out and are so skeptical because they're so used to people just trying to close them and aren't really concerned about whether or not it's the right fit for them. So it's been interesting since I've kind of taken this new approach where it's really more about qualifying and make sure it's the right fit. I've turned some people away who I know it's not the right fit for. I know this will not be successful based on what their goals are. And they're like, look, they're offended they're like what and i'm like i mean do you want me to take your money and then not help you reach the goals you just told me you want to make like it's very it's very interesting yeah and i know that is that that is um fascinating because i guess everybody wants to perceive that they're a fantastic guest and going to be you know this is going to work out great for them i think how much has um perceptions like out in the marketplace like you know because now people are going oh yeah go on podcasts you know we'll book you on podcasts and you'll get tons of you know people will recognize you and you'll sell loads and you'll be really popular all of that explain to people the actual reality i mean yeah that like that right there what you're describing is definitely what i'm up against all the time because you know years ago when i first started and i had no competitors like i could really lead the message of this being a long-term brand building strategy. And now there's other companies that, I mean, just today I lost a sale from somebody who's going to a competitor that really has that messaging that you just said. And I'm like, all right, I literally said, good luck. And I didn't mean for it to be sarcastic, but it kind of feels that way. I'm truly like, good luck. And that transactional nature out there, that's what people want, honestly. Everyone wants a quick fix. Everyone wants a silver bullet. there's so much over promising and under delivering and i do think so many consumers are like they they don't even want to know that it's under delivering and over promising in the moment it feels good to get a big promise like they can just live in that hope and i just won't do that like i will under promise and over deliver. And I will try to accurately promise and accurately deliver. But but that's the thing. There's so many companies coming into this podcasting space and they want to make those big promises like saying, oh, you know, we'll get you one of there's another company out there that will be like, you want to be on a diary of a CEO? And that's their hook. And I'm like, you're not going to get your client like that's not happening. Like, that's a huge. So he's interviewing like. big names and you're trying to tell this business coach who has a six-figure business he's going to be on that show like it's just tricky marketing and i'm i'm just not a fan of it yeah it's like telling them you can get them on joe rogan right exactly that was always the joke now people don't ask about that quite as much but it is it does happen where people are they see those promises they see those questions like do you want this but those shows they're again they want guests that have a huge following and they they'll charge for it there's sponsored episodes i mean there's shows average business owner shows that'll charge like six thousand dollars for an interview and i'm just like y'all are wait like this is not what this platform was meant for yeah so how much is um i guess um the fact that you've had to you know you've chosen now to be sales and you've chosen to do all of this how much has this helped you because now you know with your business because now there's not a gap between you and customers right you're directly there so how much has that helped you helped you shape your business it's been really really wonderful so we're talking right now in early april and my my salesperson left in early february so it's been a couple of months now and it's been really wonderful One thing I want to just mention is that so many business owners and agency owners are like, I want to scale my business. It's not scalable to do your own sales. And I just want to say, not everything has to be scalable all the time. Not everything has to be scalable all the time. You don't need to work yourself out of every aspect of your business right away. And so it's been really wonderful because in the past, I was working more hours with a salesperson doing a lot of sales calls because it's like I would have to audit all those calls and like, you know, I would lose sales because she wasn't as effective at it as I would be. And so I can do like, you know, maybe two thirds or a half of the number of calls every month and still hit the marks and hit the metrics. and so it's nice and i can talk to every client before they sign up there's like more cohesiveness with me and the service team whereas with the sales team there's always a little bit of tension you know sales sales team wants to over promise and get the sale and then the service delivery team has to clean it up and like realign expectations so it's created a lot more cohesiveness and harmony within the whole company yeah and the other thing too is uh and there's a real return to relationship you know which you know for most people didn't for for the best people it never went away but um it's it's a new discovery from maybe for people who have hidden behind inbound and all that kind of stuff over the years so relationships are back and then authenticity is a big issue too like people want to deal with people who they can who they can trust and connect with so it seems to be like um your pivot now you know are you taking over and it allows you to it allows you to increase the relation the relational aspect but also as you said the authenticity like the realness you know to be able to turn around to somebody and say no i'm sorry this isn't going to work for you or fine if you want to go somewhere else and take that option that that's fine too Yeah, I think it helps too. Like in my live master, I do a live podcast guesting masterclass every month for free to teach people about podcast guesting. And I can truly say in that it's my launch. I don't have a sales team. I'm not trying to sign up as many clients as possible. My goal is to see if this is a good fit. And if it is, I want to sign you up. If it's not, I'll send you away. But I'm the founder and I'm the owner. So I'm not getting like a commission on every sale. i get paid more when the business does well and the business will do well when the right clients are here with us long term yeah and so i think that full alignment and the truth of that marketing message is what has people trust me so much more yeah and just and to tell me one of the things that i don't think people understand is uh you could get booked on podcasts right but If you don't deliver for those podcasts or if you're not the right fit for those podcasts, you know, that gets around and stuff like that and the agency. So it kind of undermines the business if you go that route as opposed to being very, very selective. Oh yeah. The whole strategy has to be in alignment. You have to be on the right shows. You have to be represented well. You need to be talking about the right topics. That's why we incorporate so much coaching into our service. It's not transactional. And sometimes people say like, just over email, just tell me the price. And I'm like, I mean, I can give you the price, but like, I'm not just going to sign you up over email. I need to make sure that you're the right fit for us. and it's funny isn't it i mean i'm sure you have people who come maybe they're used to like they speak spoke on big stages they've done all this and now they're into this and they're like i i have i don't need any of that i'm i'm good to go yeah i mean there's egos out there for sure i don't work i don't work really well with egos Usually they're the ones I will not typically work with because they usually don't, they're not super coachable. And I love working with clients that are like, hey, you're the expert here. What do I need to do to be successful with this strategy? Because let's face it, I mean, I don't think people realize until sometimes, because I've had this experience a couple of times, like when people go on a podcast for the first time and they're not prepared, they don't really know what, you know, and it's tough on both sides, right? You know, and I think that's the thing is To see other agents like put unprepared people out there is not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, we have a whole eight week course that we require our clients to take when they first sign up. And one of the modules is preparing for your interview, having the right mindset. I mean, we're really big on training our clients because they're representing us. They're representing themselves. And this is a strategy where you're building your business by focusing on relationships first. And so you've got to focus on your relationship with the host of the show. how you're showing up your energy in that conversation and that's what will ultimately attract people to you yeah no absolutely i i agree with you and i think that's that's so important because you can tell the people have been prepared from the people you know who happened and i and i think people underestimate sometimes like i said you may be great at like you know you can deliver your company presentation you can do that that's no problem but then suddenly if if you come on a podcast like mine i'm not going to give you questions in advance so yeah you're going to have to be able to flex you know and that that is something that i think sometimes people struggle with when they go oh wow you mean it's not going to be laid out like he's going to ask this question i have my answer prepared this question i'm saying that's nobody likes to be honest nobody likes that in podcasts No, those are not the most enjoyable interviews to listen to. It's a conversation. You have to be free-flowing. And that is a skill set. It takes time. So that's why I say to, you know, if people are really nervous, like go on some smaller podcasts, some newer podcasts, get your feet wet with a host who's maybe not 1,500 episodes in. And then work your way up to the more well-established podcasts. Yeah. And I feel also you're in a better position probably to manage expectations than maybe some salespeople would be if they're just typical salespeople, because I think that's the other part is sometimes people go into this with very unrealistic expectations. Like we mentioned earlier, you know, but not even that, but people who like go and then they're like. oh you know i'm not getting enough in i'm not getting enough attention or people like didn't all jump up and celebrate the minute i went on a podcast and you're going yes yeah exactly exactly i i mean i i created the podcast booking industry of it's like this is what i've done for 13 years so i know every you know i know the answer to every question people have so it just it just makes the most sense and i hope that one day in a couple of years like i'll get to a point where there is somebody and i don't know who that person will be maybe it's someone on the team or or i track the right person who can then have the same level of authority and knowledge but again going back to my point about not everything has to be scalable i don't have to figure out that the challenge that is two years away i just need to figure out what i need to do right now this month this quarter and i think that just comes back to the point about being present and being in the moment and focusing and that's makes a great podcast interview is you're present you're in the moment you don't have distractions you're not stressing about something that's going to happen next week you're here in this interview it's the same thing in life and business focus on today yeah no i think that's a really good i think that's a really good point because sometimes you know well people tend to you know set these big goals for themselves and then you get so fixated on the destination that they ignore the journey right And let's face it, I mean, you know better than most, you know, podcasting is a journey, you know, whether you're a podcaster or whether you're guesting on pod, it's a journey. And I guess, like I said, that's why I guess you're a better place to manage expectations and to say to people, you know, you may not do great on your best one, on your first one, you may develop app. You may, here's the other thing. It's like, I mean, I'm old enough to remember back in the day when we first were able to record ourselves on tapes and stuff and you hear your voice back and you go, that's not me. and everybody else is going yeah it is and you're going really that's how i said and i think it's the same thing sometimes when people go on on podcasts and stuff suddenly they're like whoa is that's me and you know they get a little discombobulated by it yeah totally it's it's it messes with you a little bit but then the more you do it the more you know you get used to it you learn how to talk in a natural tone um but it takes practice and consistency and that's why when somebody first starts doing podcast guests and they're like, how soon can I be on really big shows? I'm like, don't even worry about that right now. Right now you need to convert and do really well on small to medium sized shows. Because if you were to go on a really big podcast today and nothing is set up to even take in the potential volume of leads that would come from that, like you would ruin the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like saying like, although, you know, I've never done a presentation before and you say, okay, well here, go in front of 40,000 people in this auditorium and knock yourself out. Exactly. Exactly. I really believe that the universe doesn't give you those types of opportunities if you can't handle it. And sometimes you get the opportunity and then you totally fumble it. You ruin it. You, you don't make the most of it. So treat every. every day like a training ground for the next day and just remember it is a journey there's not a destination and i've also over the years talked to so many business owners that do get on a really big show and they're like nothing really happened and it's like oh you get a really big show and it's a big thing and then a week later nobody remembers everyone moved on to the next episode so don't put all your eggs in those big baskets yeah and i think that's a really really really profound point to make to people is that getting on big shows may sound great and maybe it is i mean it could be for your business but downside of that is big shows move on pretty fast and they you know and and they maybe you might be unlucky maybe the guests before you and the guest asked after you just happens to be really really interesting people and far more interesting you know i mean then you are and so you get lost in the mix you may be far better off on smaller ones that are targeted to your, you know, your, your ICP. Yeah. Consistency. And I also want the listeners to know what it actually takes financially to be on really big shows. Cause I have seen in my career clients that, you know, started on small to medium sized shows and now huge with millions of followers doing all of the big name shows, Oprah, Katie Couric, like all these shows. But the thing is that you don't realize they are spending tens upon thousands of dollars probably a month on PR firms that have those connections. So you can get there, but it takes an investment. I mean, people look at my prices like $1,000 to $2,000 a month. They're like, am I going to get on Oprah? You're tripping if you think you're going to get on Oprah for $2,000 a month. Yeah, people seem to forget that these are commercial entities. They're looking for audience. Well, listen, Jessica, this has been fascinating. It was a great conversation. All of Jessica's information will be below this video. But before we go, please do remind people about what you do. So I'm the founder of Interview Connections. We help coaches turn podcast interviews into dream clients. And you can find us at interviewconnections.com. Absolutely. Well, I would encourage you to reach out and check it out if you're considering going on podcasts. I wouldn't advise you to just go on it without any preparation or without speaking to people because, you know, some people can do it, but they're the minority, to be honest. I mean, you need to have guidance. You need to be in front of the right people and be on the right podcasts. So thanks again, Jessica. Thank you for watching and listening, and I'll see you all again soon.

Jessica Rhodes, Founder of Interview Connections — the world's first podcast booking agency — shares why she eliminated her sales team after six years of trying, how founder-led selling strengthened client fit and retention, and what realistic podcast guesting actually looks like for coaches and business owners. Learn more at https://interviewconnections.com/.

0:00 – Introduction & guest welcome
1:12 – Why Interview Connections was founded
2:03 – Hiring a sales team in 2020 — and why it never quite worked
4:32 – The ICP problem: incentivizing the wrong closes
6:22 – Why podcast booking requires a consultative approach
9:22 – Managing expectations and walking away from wrong-fit clients
12:45 – Going founder-led: more cohesion, fewer hours, same results
15:43 – Preparing clients for real podcast success
21:50 – Why small shows beat chasing Oprah
24:16 – Where to connect with Jessica

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