Signals & Levers • Elisabeth Hendrickson, Joel Tosi & Charles Humble • GOTO 2026

This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. #GOTOcon #GOTObookclub
http://gotopia.tech/bookclub

Elisabeth Hendrickson - Advisor, Coach, Speaker & Co-Author of "Signals & Levers" @curiousduckdev 
Joel Tosi - Co-Founder & CTO at Dojo & Co & Co-Author of "Signals & Levers"
Charles Humble - Freelance Techie, Podcaster, Editor, Author & Consultant

Check out more here:
https://gotopia.tech/episodes/448

RESOURCES
Elisabeth
https://ruby.social/@testobsessed
https://github.com/testobsessed
https://www.linkedin.com/in/testobsessed
https://curiousduck.io

Joel
https://mastodon.social/@joeltosi
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-tosi-531a3b

Charles
https://bsky.app/profile/charleshumble.bsky.social
https://linkedin.com/in/charleshumble
https://mastodon.social/@charleshumble
https://conissaunce.com

Links
https://ruthmalan.com
http://www.ask-force.org/web/Discourse/Rittel-Dilemmas-General-Theory-Planning-1973.pdf
https://youtu.be/9w6YeNNJLkg
https://youtu.be/m7cWdYVAzX0
https://youtu.be/WazqgfsO_kY
https://youtu.be/lpNzR0fvxDw
https://youtu.be/OkVjqwkveiY
https://youtu.be/j2AQ9eTZ3-0
https://youtu.be/BvJ0XLyCQsw
https://youtu.be/RNdspOqbBEk
https://youtu.be/qjJ6LvOU7q0
https://youtu.be/p-R7Doigqzc

DESCRIPTION
Elisabeth Hendrickson and Joel Tosi open by explaining why systems thinking is having a moment right now: organizations that went all-in on Agile and DevOps are finding those returns plateauing, and the rise of AI is forcing engineering teams to reexamine where their real bottlenecks are. The book, Signals & Levers, gives software engineers a practical vocabulary and toolkit for that examination. A core insight is that most organizational dysfunction isn't caused by bad people or bad intentions, but by systems that produce bad outcomes predictably and structurally. The named archetypes in the book — over 20 of them, covering patterns like escalating technical debt, the "fixes that fail" loop, and the boiling frog — give teams a shared language to recognize and reason about those patterns without having to discover them from scratch.

The most practically actionable section of the conversation covers signals versus levers: understanding the difference between information (a signal) and an intervention point (a lever) is the foundation for making changes that actually work rather than changes that feel productive and achieve nothing. On AI, both authors are cautious in the right ways: Elisabeth uses it daily as a thinking partner but keeps herself firmly at the steering wheel. Joel's warning is starker — AI amplifies whatever is already true about your organization, including dysfunction, and if it lets you ship faster than you can learn, the consequences may be severe. The book closes with an exercise for the reader: if AI doubles your delivery speed, what happens when you can ship faster than you can adapt?

TIMECODES
00:00 Intro
01:29 Why is Systems Thinking having a moment?
07:02 Once you see the system, you can't unsee it
13:40 The importance of storytelling
17:14 Agile, Lean, XP... Why are we still missing deadlines?
21:58 Illusions of progress, predictability & control
26:16 Signals vs. Levers: The core distinction
30:11 Why does fixing the wrong thing feel like progress?
36:27 How do leaders separate signal from noise?
40:21 What is causal modeling?
46:16 Culture vs. Policy
55:43 AI as thinking partner & amplifier of dysfunction
59:36 Resources
01:01:50 Outro

RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Elisabeth Hendrickson & Joel Tosi • Signals & Levers • https://amzn.to/4g6Fb3C
Diana Montalion • Learning Systems Thinking • https://amzn.to/3ZpycdJ
Don Norman • The Design of Everyday Things • https://amzn.to/4fV6QVl
Gene Kim • The Unicorn Project • https://amzn.to/3woXQDz
Gene Kim, Kevin Behr & George Spafford • The Phoenix Project • https://amzn.to/3X9cYxa
Peter Degrace & Leslie Hulet Stahl • Wicked Problems, Righteous Solutions • https://amzn.to/3ScP0D9
Frederick Brooks Jr. • The Mythical Man-Month • https://amzn.to/4gd10OV
Gerald Weinberg • An Introduction to General Systems Thinking • https://amzn.to/4dZCsaO
Donella H. Meadows • Thinking in Systems • https://amzn.to/3XtqYCV

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